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UPDATE: Arrest made in relation to latest murder in East End

- number of searches conducted, according to RVIPF
June 22nd, 2017 | Tags: David Springette Mooney murder gun crime homicide
At least one person has been arrested in relation to the murder of David Springette aka ‘Mooney’, which occurred in Fat Hogs Bay on June 21, 2017. Photo: VINO/File
It was around 11:50 PM last night June 21, 2017 in the area of Long Look, between Fine Foods Supermarket and the Bus Stop that a man identified as David Springette aka 'Mooney’ was shot to death. Photo: VINO/File
It was around 11:50 PM last night June 21, 2017 in the area of Long Look, between Fine Foods Supermarket and the Bus Stop that a man identified as David Springette aka 'Mooney’ was shot to death. Photo: VINO/File
ROAD TOWN, Tortola, VI- At least one person has been arrested in relation to the murder of David Springette aka ‘Mooney’.
Springette was shot and killed in Fat Hogs Bay on June 21, 2017, bringing the number of homicide in the Virgin Islands to a record 7 in 6 months.

According to the Royal Virgin Islands Police Force (RVIPF), Police on Wednesday June 21, 2017, sometime after 11:30 PM, responded to a report of gunshots fired in the East End area.

“On arrival it was discovered that a young man identified as David “Moonhead” Springette of Long Look was shot,” a police press release today, June 22, 2017 stated.

It further stated that a doctor in the immediate area was summoned to the area and there he pronounced Springette dead. The deceased family and the Coroner were informed.

One in custody

Police also stated that one person of interest is presently in custody “assisting members of the Major Investigation Team with investigation and a number of searches have been conducted.”

The RVIPF said it is actively conducting enquiries in the area of the shooting and are exploring links with a number of recent incidents.

“The officer in charge of the investigation DCI Hazel, wishes to thank witnesses who have come forward to assist the police. DCI Hazel states that there are still a large number of persons who have yet to come forward in relation to the murder.”

DCI Hazel is also appealing for witnesses or any persons with information to contact the RVIPF Intelligence Unit on 368-9339, the Major Crime Team on 468-5678 or Crime Stoppers 800-8477 where the identity of the caller will remain anonymous.

See previous article published June 22, 2017

‘Mooney’ murdered; Now 7th killing in 6 months

- After many attempts to kill him they succeeded as crime remains out of control in the Virgin Islands

Following the poorly supported ‘Stop the Crime Concert’ initiative last week, it appears no one is listening as gun crime remains out of control in the tiny British Overseas Territory of the Virgin Islands.

It was around 11:50 PM last night June 21, 2017 in the area of Fat Hogs Bay, on the eastern end of Tortola, that a man identified as David Springette aka 'Mooney’ was shot to death.

This brings the murder rate for 2017 to seven in six months, an all-time high for a population of 30,000 residents, despite the United Kingdom recruited Police Commissioner Michael Matthews and Government claiming that crime in the Virgin Islands (VI) is low.

Mr Springette had survived two previous shooting incidents in December 2016.

This is the second homicide in the month of June 2017.

Other information surrounding this incident is sketchy and more details will be provided as they become available.

77 Responses to “UPDATE: Arrest made in relation to latest murder in East End”

  • long look me come from (22/06/2017, 06:27) Like (7) Dislike (0) Reply
    SMH sad
  • Laura (22/06/2017, 06:28) Like (91) Dislike (2) Reply
    BVI Wakeup! Stop hiding for your mother, brother, sister, cousin, lovers...its time to take our islands back. Everyone knows what is what and why these incidents are occurring, put a stop to it and TALK. It may be you or someone you know tomorrow.

    Tourism is the BVI's bread and butter! Without it, how far will the country go if we are portraying it is not safe to visit or live in our isles?
    • Street reporter (22/06/2017, 06:47) Like (30) Dislike (17) Reply
      Why the hell the police didn't find the person or persons that shot him twice before.. They had 2 shot at it....He was finally kill in a Bar..."That's where good detectives hang out," Truth be told We Need good Detectives, or maybe good leaders...
      • @streetreporter (22/06/2017, 09:29) Like (39) Dislike (2) Reply
        You are really dumb!! If a person know who shot at him and failed to say who did, How do you expect the Police who was not therein the first place to arrest that person?. At least he should have spill his gut the second time tell someone...there must be someone he could have trusted why and who is after. This is a warning to all the others who have been shot at leave a clue..tell someone it is better to snitch than to stitched in a body body bag.
        • @@Street Stop calling people idiot..Brainless (22/06/2017, 18:35) Like (7) Dislike (8) Reply
          What does detectives do? All your cops full of FN excuses...Do the work..Find the criminals.. If people were going to call and talk everything they see, then we don't need half you all waste...Detectives...Find the meaning then stop calling people idiot.. You brainless aaaa.
          • Far Side of the Street (23/06/2017, 21:26) Like (2) Dislike (0) Reply
            How do you suggest police find the shooters without evidence? Witnesses are the evidence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No witnesses then no arrests. Police aren't psychics and they can't charge someone for a crime on a hunch! Theifs and murderers may not abide by the law but the police and the court system sure do. Until BVI gets it through their thick skulls that without evidence these no good thugs will continue to walk the streets and live amongst your children then this murder spree will continue as eye for an eye mentality continues.
      • concern (22/06/2017, 10:34) Like (18) Dislike (0) Reply
        why he didn't provide information to the police on his suspected attackers. He had to of known who was trying to kill him twice before.
      • .... (22/06/2017, 11:55) Like (3) Dislike (2) Reply
        But don't they have someone currently in prison for his attempted murder?? Then maybe. Is they got the wrong guy wowww
    • Online Now (22/06/2017, 10:30) Like (5) Dislike (3) Reply
      @ Laura. No we don't all know "what is what and why these incidents are occurring". Please explain to those of us who do not know but just assume it is criminals killing criminals. This is possibly why there is less buy in from (white) expats for the Anti crime concert, the feeling that it is not as expat issue.

      If you really do know "what is what and why these incidents are occurring" and you haven't told everything you know to the police, then you are part of the problem when you could be part of the solution.

    • big daddy (23/06/2017, 12:36) Like (2) Dislike (0) Reply
      The world is full of beautiful islands full of really friendly people. Why come the a crime and litter ridden place where the "belongers" hate you because of your skin color? More and more vacationers will ask this question and then the golden goose will be thoroughly cooked.
  • Lord o (22/06/2017, 06:30) Like (63) Dislike (5) Reply
    Mooney boy the Sun catch up with you.. Your cat days are over...I think you wanted to die...Why the hell you didn't get to hell up out of here before you get strike out..? You already had 2 Strikes... Sad though! No one deserved to die like that...
  • Ricky (22/06/2017, 06:42) Like (8) Dislike (32) Reply
    Just shows how stupid these gunmen are that it took 3 times to kill him !
  • just asking... (22/06/2017, 06:52) Like (12) Dislike (13) Reply
    Where is the uk police and government crime plan?
  • Just saying (22/06/2017, 07:12) Like (17) Dislike (21) Reply
    And we paying uk offices to relax in the bvi
    • Outlaw (22/06/2017, 13:48) Like (11) Dislike (2) Reply
      @ just saying. Where are the people around here that see things and knows things and saying nothing. You could have all the U.K. Officers here and all the crime plan in the book, except people come forward and provide the information they withholding, then we will still be a square one.
  • D.nice (22/06/2017, 07:14) Like (3) Dislike (12) Reply
    Wake up dog....sleeping on the a miss u dog 4 life we had some good times my bouy...see u in heaven peace out...
  • The 3rd Eye (22/06/2017, 07:32) Like (32) Dislike (25) Reply
    I spoke about the ritual blood sacrifices these government Ministers made to regain power in their dark closed in shelters.

    Many believe it is a joke but more to come.

    BVI is in turmoil.
    • SMH (22/06/2017, 10:18) Like (21) Dislike (7) Reply
      @The 3rd Eye: I rebuke this in Jesus' name. Good will prevail. Our young men will stop killing each other. They will be awaken and get involve in things that will bring happy rewards to our country. And it will be done.
      • 0.0 (22/06/2017, 11:47) Like (14) Dislike (3) Reply
        If you truly believe in God you will know that it will never stop and that is why Yeshua is coming again...No one should die but saying you rebuke will do nothing,instead keep being righteous and spread the word of his coming... Time is already moving faster for the elect sake....It will get worse it has to...Revelation.
      • @SMH (23/06/2017, 02:07) Like (4) Dislike (1) Reply
        Nice to speak with faith but here is belief. If you truly believe in Jesus,
        you would believe when he say
        "Jeremiah 17:9
        The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

        You will believe in him when he say
        "2 Timothy 3:1
        This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

        You will also believe when he say
        2 Chronicles 7:14
        If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and heal their land

        The key word here is PRAY
        Our father who art in heaven, forgive us out trespasses
    • @3rd eye (23/06/2017, 01:48) Like (1) Dislike (0) Reply
      Sometime aback a lady from SS spoke about 3 of them but the people scoffed at her. Like you say, more to come for their faces are beginning to take on the demeanor of such
  • Stop The Crime??? (22/06/2017, 07:37) Like (68) Dislike (10) Reply
    Do you people really think that a "Stop The Crime" concert was going to make a difference? That is so shallow. That was just someone trying to sensationalize a growing problem that stems from a serious breakdown in our social moral fabric. If we are not perpared to weed out corruption and drugs within this comminity, we will be heading to hell in a hand basket. How is it that guns, drugs and illegal dance girls getting into our community? hmmm. tell me how will a concert STOP that? what has the orginzers of this concert done since then to help "Stop The Crime"? HELLO, it is going to take more than that. it is time to come up with a plan to deal with these social ills that has surfaced within our community because, unfortunately, no one is going to talk.
    • Hmm (22/06/2017, 09:11) Like (12) Dislike (37) Reply
    • Well (22/06/2017, 09:21) Like (26) Dislike (8) Reply
      One thing for sure the concert was a effort to unify and if people like you wasn't so ignorant we would realize that. Secondly what have you done besides talking on this blog, let me guess you waiting on a miracle to solve the crime problems in the BVI? Stop talk and put move, heck i sick of tortola people mentality quick to talk down and never ready to put action to where their mouth is. Unify now and go to funerals frequently is the new BVI , print T-shirts with who passed on reading RIP, that's wa we going accept? GROW UP PEOPLE OPEN AYO EYES.
    • Reader (22/06/2017, 12:07) Like (16) Dislike (2) Reply
      @ Stop the Crime...I disagree with you that the concert will not do anything to stop the crime. If you READ the article that the promoters (Lions & musical Artists) wrote, you would recall that its goal was to raise FUNDS to acquire CRIME PREVENTION EQPT. e.g. cameras. If your memory is not too short, you may recall that recently persons (including someone who had picked up Alston Penn), were caught on camera. That represents CONCRETE EVIDENCE that would be useful in solving crimes, and hopefully deterring "future would-be" criminals. Of course, the power of conversion and transformation can do wonders on the MINDS of men, women, boys and the mean time, we the members of society can sow our seeds among the young men. How?:

      - By being a role model and befriending
      - By providing opportunities to learn a trade
      - By employing them or helping them seek employment (once they are willing to work)

      We can also provide outlets for healthy activities: sports etc. The saying says "It takes a village to raise a child". I'm not just here talking, but I made it my business one day when I was going down the road (in my village - in a certain area where I see young men regularly congregate near the road {and where the scent of marijuana is most times smelt} ), to personally interview a few of them (and took notes and follow-up steps), as to what they would want their representative/government to do for them. This is only my humble input and we have many in society who are professionals and have money, influence and other resources, that can be utilized to make a positive difference in our BVI society - our home/place of residency.
    • @stop the crime (22/06/2017, 12:13) Like (5) Dislike (1) Reply
      And what have you done about the situation??
  • Dora (22/06/2017, 07:38) Like (9) Dislike (8) Reply
    What could he have done for them to want him dead so bad? Smh
    • SMH (22/06/2017, 12:22) Like (16) Dislike (0) Reply
      Go back a number of years & think Moneygram! Take a good look at all who either dead or in jail and you will see the connection. Any and everybody who have come in contact with that money falling like flies
    • @Dora (23/06/2017, 02:20) Like (2) Dislike (0) Reply
      I hear he knew who dust off them SK boys brother but he wouldn't talk to the popo
  • Like really. (22/06/2017, 07:59) Like (9) Dislike (25) Reply
    The governor had nerve to demand monies from the government, want to get on like jack****. Now today we can even get a stop and search must less decent officers work the beat. But it have England here on vacationing. Your Excellency we the people want back monies in full NOW. Rip son.
  • grim reaper (22/06/2017, 08:48) Like (10) Dislike (3) Reply
    Who next
  • F.ThePolice! (22/06/2017, 09:08) Like (53) Dislike (4) Reply
    The real reason people on the BVI don't speak to cops is because they run their mouth too much... my mother man is a cop.. and i done listen to this man tell my mother some real classified police information that ain dupposed to be discussed outside the work place.. so imagine who else they telling.. and remember every friend have a better friend that they going tell then eventually the tlk geh back to the suspect then they disappear.. another unsolved case....
    • Freedom of Expression (22/06/2017, 14:11) Like (2) Dislike (2) Reply
      So who is getting Killed? our do not trust the COPS!!!!!. look at the plain truth
      (a) Expat murder expat result ? MURDER UNSOLVED
      (b) Expat murder B.V.I Islander result? MURDER UNSOLVED
      (a) B.V.I Islander murder expat result? MURDER UNSOLVED
      (b) B.V.I Islander murder B.V.I Islander result MURDER UNSOLVED
      So do you see why there are so many unsolved murders here? B.V.I Islanders do not snitch on each other meh son!!! who will suffer? When things start to get really bad here a lot of people will run back to their country. Most of us do not have any other place to run too.
      • Freedom of Expression (22/06/2017, 15:43) Like (4) Dislike (0) Reply
        let me correct blogging So who is getting Killed? our do not trust the COPS?. look at the plain truth
        (a) Expat murder expat result ? MURDER SOLVED
        (b) Expat murder B.V.I Islander result? MURDER SOLVED
        (a) B.V.I Islander murder expat result? MURDER UNSOLVED
        (b) B.V.I Islander murder B.V.I Islander result MURDER UNSOLVED
        So do you see why there are so many unsolved murders here? B.V.I Islanders do not snitch on each other meh son!!! who will suffer? When things start to get really bad here a lot of people will run back to their country. Most of us do not have any other place to run too.
    • Jacperlance (22/06/2017, 14:47) Like (8) Dislike (4) Reply
      @F. The Police. An you are so lie, you are a perfect police hater and just come here with your innuendo to belittle them. Ok you don't trust the police and here you are trying to give others reasons not to trust them. So want to tell me there are no other person in the community you trust. You comment makes no sense, people like you and others, every time something happens, it's like the police problem, well go on and continue to blame police while the BVI is vanishing away. Crime here is not the police problem alone it's all of us problem but many of us feel we don't have a responsibility to help protect this country and always blogging piss.
  • E. Leonard (22/06/2017, 09:08) Like (18) Dislike (1) Reply
    Based on 7 murders thus far in 2017, the BVI has a murder rate per capita of 23 (30,000 population) per 100,000 population or 0.23 per 1,000. This is one of the highest rate in the world; this is list that the BVI needs to be on the bottom of, not the top of. This high murder rate adversely impact the quality of life and the fragile economic base, especially tourism.

    Tourism is a critical component of the economic twin tower: tourism and financial services. Though tourism may not generate as much revenue as financial services, it employs more residents and creates more secondary/spinoff business opportunities. Tourism needs a no or low crime rate to flourish.

    As such, high crime puts the VI at a competitive disadvantage among small regional destinations. Violent crime is increasing and needs to be arrested. Rising crime cause visitors to take pause on whether they should visit a country or not.

    Often, high crime cause visitors to avoid some destinations. Our neighbor to the south is still reeling from an early 1970s incident. Arresting the problem is a community responsibility and the whole community must get engaged. Crime impacts the whole community. What happens in East End can have an impact on West End.
  • My Goodness (22/06/2017, 09:15) Like (41) Dislike (8) Reply
    VINO is so out of order with the headline, like it's a celebration....."they succeeded"?..really? His is a mother's child, and I extend condolences to the family. He may not have been the best apple in the bunch but another life has been cut....perpetrators right here reading and commenting too, cause I refuse to believe some people would dislike such positive comments, y'all sick mehson
  • The 1 (22/06/2017, 09:25) Like (3) Dislike (4) Reply
    Boy mooney R.I.P.
  • Charley Rose (22/06/2017, 09:43) Like (13) Dislike (1) Reply
    If this crime spree continues unabated, I think the Governor will act and many of us will not like the action of the Governor. Mooney Rest In Peace.
  • Real Madrid (22/06/2017, 09:59) Like (20) Dislike (4) Reply
    I think a stop and search once or twice a week could be a great help to confiscate guns and ammunition.
    I also agree that perhaps the police could have interrogated Mooney, to find out why someone will want to murder him. He had to know something or perhaps he did something and was just trying to hide from the alleged killers.
    • Hmm (22/06/2017, 11:36) Like (9) Dislike (4) Reply
      What stop and search and one ph call everyone stay put or what ever......the people is the answer....not stop and search....just think bout it.
  • Keen (22/06/2017, 10:07) Like (15) Dislike (2) Reply
    A keen eye has to be place on the law officers.
  • pat (22/06/2017, 10:51) Like (15) Dislike (1) Reply
    Next time i hear mick and orlando say crime is low i am going to walk the street clothless
  • 8th district gyal (22/06/2017, 10:52) Like (10) Dislike (2) Reply
    OMG those are some bad hombres. Marlon, we going need a wall!
    • please (22/06/2017, 19:20) Like (1) Dislike (0) Reply
      A well for what we are the same people don't u never think for a min that u are better or your district is we are east end we are one people .....
      So stop that.....but well
    • Serpico (22/06/2017, 20:42) Like (0) Dislike (0) Reply
      This happenediterally in front the district rep house. Wake up peeps.
  • Hmm (22/06/2017, 10:57) Like (1) Dislike (0) Reply
    Boy jimmy them ain do u good smh
  • Fam (22/06/2017, 11:16) Like (2) Dislike (1) Reply
    Rest in peace cuz u will be missed
  • crime (22/06/2017, 11:20) Like (6) Dislike (2) Reply
    Many persons have a clear view of why some of these crimes are taking place in the BVI. Some maybe are family oriented and drugs related or woman or man affairs.
  • WTF (22/06/2017, 12:04) Like (26) Dislike (6) Reply
    How embarrassing and down right sad that 28 MURDERS on an island 4 miles wide and 12 miles long can not be solved. Bring in some New York cops and let them loose, forget human rights rubbish the UK cops have to abide by, just look at the UK crime, asian terrorist running free because of the crazy Politically correct imbeciles.
  • ...... (22/06/2017, 14:15) Like (18) Dislike (0) Reply
    This is what happens when you turn a blind eye to small crimes. Big crimes start becoming prevalent.
    • @ Hmmmm (22/06/2017, 15:19) Like (1) Dislike (1) Reply
      Stop the crime concert dont do nottin, instead the organizers of the show should call the police and tell them what there know, but they wont because is there friends and family doing the crime.
  • CrackSomeHeads (22/06/2017, 16:00) Like (3) Dislike (6) Reply
    Liberal agenda without checks can be an issue, yes we should be free to live our lives in the way we see fit however some times too much freedom comes at a price we can't afford. Crush the little things that doesn't fit into the greater society, crack a few heads and they will fall in line!!!
  • jah (22/06/2017, 16:37) Like (4) Dislike (0) Reply
    Bvi too nice for these crime
    • jah (22/06/2017, 17:38) Like (3) Dislike (1) Reply
      chidren live what they learnt.what in the mom most of the time in the kids .pls no the men or the women you sleep with.
  • where is the cuban? (22/06/2017, 17:57) Like (9) Dislike (0) Reply
    He is too busy saving sharks while people perish in his district
  • Realist (22/06/2017, 18:11) Like (7) Dislike (10) Reply
    See they rush to arrest the wrong person and will have to release him. The RVIPF is a big joke crime gone wild
    • job (23/06/2017, 10:05) Like (2) Dislike (0) Reply

      @Realist, you should call your self real @$& instead. When you don't understand laws or police work, just keep your fingers off the keys. For your information, "When the police are investigating a crime, they are free to question any person whether suspected or not". That's the nature of their work. Sometimes it may seems to you that they arrest the wrong person, but they will not arrest except they got some kind of info on that person

  • Jack B (22/06/2017, 18:49) Like (8) Dislike (0) Reply
    Detectives solves crimes..They investigate, Get informant. they find evidence...Uniform Cops prevent crimes they patrol be seen and become a deterrent... When people don't know or do their rolls we end up with this..Chaos...
  • People talk (22/06/2017, 18:53) Like (6) Dislike (2) Reply
    If plain clothes cops are out at nights mingling. They will see and they will hear because people talk, that's what they best talk..
  • @Realist (22/06/2017, 19:32) Like (2) Dislike (1) Reply
    You and the likes of u. I am still trying to find a word to describe you. If you know the wrong person was arrested what are you doing about it? It is people like u who feed other people's mishaps. A family is grieving over their lost and u are here trying to make yourself look good. For their sake i will show respect.
  • Serpico (22/06/2017, 20:43) Like (1) Dislike (0) Reply
    @WTF. IT'S more like 40.
  • Stop the crime (22/06/2017, 21:58) Like (1) Dislike (0) Reply
    R.i.p.... moony
  • mr crime (22/06/2017, 22:36) Like (1) Dislike (0) Reply
    When did we become the least caring country on Earth, especially to our own citizens?
  • Freedom of Expression (23/06/2017, 00:17) Like (14) Dislike (3) Reply
    To trust or not to trust the Police is not just because they wiil leak back the information. It is cultural. The RVIPF was formed just about 50 years ago with members from the Leeward Islands Police Force. Today they will be referred to as Islandmen . During the late 60s 70s . Serious crimes, drugs use, and of course traffic offences were minimal. The Police back then while they were looked at as island men were tolerated Because they hardly had to make arrest they were allow to mingle with the natives who saw them as no threat to them or their children . That is how we hear about men like Holliday etc. As crime increased and the Police began to make arrests...natives, their threat level increased and people started look at how them islandman putting out children in jail they started to tell them even when they wrong 'ayo born here them cant do ayo nothing meh son' When their children wanted to join the Police Force they were told 'if you go and join them you have to leave this house". To make this shorter,, what is happening now was conceived long ago. Our children were taught to direspect all forms of authority, teachers, Immigration, Police and Custom Officers Nurses and Doctors, even our own Political Leaders who by the way, contributed to this
    behavior even their own peers. Why? Solely because they "you born here". We are reaping what we sowed...and it is not because the Police cannot be trusted or their inability to solve crimes. Our own attitude towards others brought us here.
  • Boxing (23/06/2017, 05:38) Like (15) Dislike (0) Reply
    Some guy started a boxing program like a year or two ago...What happen to that? Those are the kind of programs we need... Young people who think they bad and want to beat up on someone put the gloves on and do it legally....Get their frustration out..I'm certain no one will die...We give up too quick, things take time to kick-off and ketch-on...They should have stayed with it..
    • @boxing (23/06/2017, 09:05) Like (11) Dislike (0) Reply
      Of all departments SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT shut them down. They wanted money for the building. They wanted money from the volunteers.... that department is a JOKE... wanting to put money in their own pockets instead of helping the youth!
  • big daddy (23/06/2017, 12:32) Like (5) Dislike (0) Reply
    The youth are doing what they see on videos and hear in music from the states. Hip Hop and Rap culture endlessly promote violence and drug use. When the parents and grandparents are involved in all aspects of the development of their children and grandchildren the kids will often be ashamed to disappoint their families with criminal behavior.

    There should be shame and disgrace for thuggish behavior. Instead these punks and thugs are idolized by their peers and embraced and protected by their families.
  • Welsah (23/06/2017, 14:20) Like (0) Dislike (2) Reply
    Queen old , UK out of hand, Bvi out of hand.
  • Crooks (23/06/2017, 17:03) Like (3) Dislike (3) Reply
    Some cops are crooks they go about their daily lives acting like they above the law.Thats why they can't get the public to help cause the public is seeing all their bad ways@@@@@@@
  • Hmm (26/06/2017, 09:44) Like (0) Dislike (1) Reply
    I wish all of yall would stfu and let my brother rest in peace!!!
  • truth be told (26/06/2017, 20:50) Like (0) Dislike (0) Reply
    statistically the BVI now has one of the highest crime rate in the world, why with 30 thousand people and 1 a month that is like double NYC, Jamaican and Haiti, the same as Chicago

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